《红周刊》:其实,布伦特原油6月份期货合约近期内将要进行结算,有没有可能也会出现再次下跌甚至负值?
Weekly on Stocks: In fact, theBrent crude oil futures contract in June is to be settled in the near future.Is there any chance that it will fall again or even go negative?
罗杰斯:我不知道,也许你们的节目可以告诉我答案(笑)。市场现在肯定是有所准备了,“负价格”对所有人来说都是一个意料之外的事情,没有人想得到,因为以往从来没发生过。但是,现在包括交易所,包括那些或许想低价买入石油的人都有所准备了。如果他们看到有人必须要抛售石油,就会有人出来买,有些人仍然需要消费石油。所以,我们等着看吧。这对你(记者)来说是好事,因为你有了报道的素材。
Rogers:I don‘t know. Maybe your show can tell me the answer (Laugh). The market iscertainly better prepared now. “Negative price” came as a big surprise toeveryone. No one wants it, for it never happened before. But now exchanges,including those who might want to buy oil at low prices, have got ready. Ifthey see someone has to dump the oil, someone may buy it, and some people douse oil still. So, we’ll see. It’s good for you (reporters), because you havesomething to report.
《红周刊》:原油期货都出现“负价格”这种极端情况了,我们能否据此认为,全球市场前景变得更加不确定了?
Weekly on Stocks: Such extremesituation like “negative price” has occurred to crude oil futures, can weassume that the outlook for global markets has become more uncertain?
罗杰斯:当然,这意味着有些石油公司和石油钻探公司会破产。水力压裂(页岩油)行业的情况很糟糕,有些石油公司负债很高,它们的日子也不会好过。我说过,在沙特阿拉伯、科威特、苏丹等严重依赖石油或油价的国家,你会看到更多的问题,例如企业破产。在
航运业,目前有一家很大的新加坡的公司已经破产了,原因是它们完全没料到油价会下跌。所以,经济肯定会受到影响,股市也会反映出来。但要记住,有人会乐见油价下跌。如果你是韩国人,你会觉得这是好消息。如果你是中国人,你也会觉得这是好消息。这对新加坡人也是好消息,但破产的这家公司除外。
Rogers:Of course, this means that some oil companies and oil drilling companies aregoing to go bankrupt. It’s a very bad situation for the hydraulic fracturing(shale oil) industry, and some of the oil companies are heavily indebted andthey are going to have a hard time. As I said, in the countries like SaudiArabia, Kuwait, Sudan which depend largely on oil or the oil price, you aregoing to see more problems, such as bankruptcies. In the shipping industry, alarge Singaporean company has gone bankrupt because it did not expect the oilprice to fall. Thus, it’s having ramifications in the economy, and that willalso have a reflection in the stock market. But remember, there are some peoplewho love to see this. If you are Korean, you would think this is wonderful. Ifyou are Chinese, you will also think this is wonderful. It is also great forSingaporeans, except for the company that went bankrupt.
《红周刊》:英国卫报发表观点认为,如果世界各地迅速结束“隔离”,将加速石油市场价格的复苏。这个判断是否乐观了?
Weekly on Stocks: A swift endto “isolation” around the world could accelerate a recovery in oil marketprices, according to The Guardian. Is that over-optimistic?
罗杰斯:不,我不觉得这个观点过于乐观。在我看来,隔离是个错误。我们以前也经历过恐慌和流行病。你知道,我们经历过非典。2009年我们经历过H1N1
禽流感。在H1N1禽
流感期间,美国经济没有封锁。不可否认,病毒的确会对人们的健康带来影响,但历史证明,人们学会了适应。新加坡全面隔离,但疫情更严重了,因为人们全都挤在一起。所以,在我看来,隔离不是一件好事。而且,一旦经济重新开放,所有东西的需求都会上升。例如,我们看到,奥地利正在解封,但瑞典始终没有“封国”“封城”。所以,不一定要封锁,应对此次疫情还有其他解决方案。
Rogers:No, I don’t think that’s over-optimistic. In my opinion, isolation is amistake. We’ve had panics and epidemics before. You know, we had SARS. We hadthe H1N1 avian influenza in 2009. When we had the H1N1, the U.S. economy wasnot locked down. There is no denying that viruses do have an impact on people’shealth, but history shows that people have learnt to adapt. Singapore wascompletely isolated, but it got worse because everyone has packed in together.So, in my opinion, isolation is not a good thing.Andonce the economy reopened, the demand for everything would rise. We see, forexample, that Austria is lifting the lockdown, but Sweden never conducts the “lockdown”of the country and its cities. So, it doesn’t have to be a lockdown. There areother solutions as well.
《红周刊》:在您看来,现在是买入原油期货的好时机吗?如果您要买入的话,您会选择在什么时点呢?
Weekly on Stocks: In youropinion, is it the good timing to buy in crude oil futures? If you were to buy,when would you choose to buy it?
罗杰斯:现在石油崩盘了,市场非常混乱。通常,在任何国家的任何市场,有这样的事情发生时,如果你知道自己在做什么并买入了,你可能会经历一段时间的动荡难熬期,但最终都会没事。
Rogers:Now the oil has crashed and the market is in chaos. Usually, in any market inany country, when such thing occurs, if you know what you are doing and you buyin, you might go through a turbulent period for a while, but eventually youwill be fine.
恐慌和流行病不会永远持续下去。封锁不会永远持续下去。所以,我们还会开车,我们还会搭乘飞机。所以,如果你进场,我可能也会进场。我现在没有进场是因为我在做别的事情。如果我不是太懒,我也许应该进场或思考何时及如何进场买入,来投资这个行业。因为目前存在恐慌,而如果你在恐慌的时候买入,你总能赚钱。
Panics and pandemics are not going to lastforever.Closures are not going to lastforever. So, we are going to drive again, we are going to take airplanes again.If you step in, I might do it. I’m not doing it today because I’m doing otherthings. But If I were not so lazy, I probably should be stepping in or figuringabout when and how to step in and buy, making investments in this sector. Because there is apanic and whenever you buy during a panic, you can always do well.
《红周刊》:就像巴菲特所说的赶在恐惧的时候去“贪婪”。
Weekly on Stocks: To be “greedy”in a time of fearful, as Warren Buffett said.
罗杰斯:巴菲特用的是恐惧,我用的是恐慌,基本上是一个意思。
Rogers: He used the word “fearful”. I usethe word “panic”. Basically, it’s the same approach.
《红周刊》:在您看来,原油期货的暴跌会对美国股债市场产生怎样的影响?
Weekly on Stocks: In youropinion, how will the collapse of crude oil futures affect the U.S. equity andbond markets?
罗杰斯:主要是对石油公司和石油钻探公司不利,因为显然它们会大幅亏损。对美国
老百姓有利,那些需要石油来发电、为汽车加油、使用空调或有其他用途的人们会受益。对中国有利。对日本、韩国或任何石油消费国都有利。这对石油公司或产油国不利,但显然对其他人有利。
美国股市有相当大的一部分是石油公司和石油钻探公司,所以这部分经济会受到冲击。由于这类公司占比较大,所以会对大市产生影响。但美国股市不是只有石油,诱发美国股市下跌的因素也不仅是石油,还有肺炎疫情。
Rogers:It’smainly terrible for oil companies and oil drilling companies, because obviouslythey are going to have a lot less money. It is good for American citizens,people who use oil for electricity, or cars, or air conditioning or whatever.It’s good for China. It’s good for Japan, Korea, and any oil consuming country.This is not good for oil companies or oil producing countries. But it is certainly good for everybody else.
A large part of the USstock market is made up of oil companies and oil drilling companies. So thatpart of the American economy will suffer. Since it’s a large part, it will havean effect on the overall market. However, the factors that make the Americanstock market going down are not just oil, but also the outbreak of the COVID-19.
《红周刊》:从美国政府数据来看,美国原油储备在3月份整个市场开始下跌的时候不断买入原油,您如何看美国原油储备的动作?
Weekly on Stocks: According to U.S. government data, U.S. crude oilreserves continued to buy oil in March as the overall market began to fall.What do you think of the actions taken by U.S. crude oil reserves?
罗杰斯:特朗普这样做是为了选票。众所周知,他正在失去产油区的选票。但其实所有国家都应该这样做。石油崩盘了,油价下跌了,如果中国、德国或任何其他国家,如果它们没有足够的储备来应对紧急状况,都应该马上进场去买石油并存放在自己的储油罐里。
Rogers: Trump is doing that because hewants to get votes. As everyone knows, he’s losing votes in the oil producingareas. Although, it’s something that all countries should be doing. Oil hascollapsed. Oil prices have fell down. If China, Germany or any other countryhave not enough reserves of oil for emergencies, they should be stepping in andbuying oil now and putting it in their own storage tanks.
《红周刊》:疫情使得各国全球供应链有了新的认识,美、日等国政府一些高官鼓励跨国企业将生产线迁回本土,这被市场理解为“逆全球化”,您如何看待这种现象?
Weekly on Stocks: The epidemichas led to a new understanding of global supply chains in various countries,and some senior government officials in the US and Japan have encouragedmultinational companies to relocate their production lines back to their homecountries, which is understood by the market as "ReverseGlobalization". How do you think about this?
罗杰斯:很不幸,历史上确实有过这样的时刻。有时国家们会变得更开放、更国际化,有时它们变得更封闭。我想在长达几十年的开放化之后,世界现在有了封闭的趋势。这不是一件好事。在1930年代大危机时期就出现过这种状态,它导致了战争,以及其他许多问题。现在也有这种趋势。我希望它不会
长久。许多美国公司都在搬回美国,但在美国开办企业的成本是非常昂贵的,产品质量却未必同样好。目前事态或许就是如此,这很不好,无论是对我的孩子,还是对这个世界。
Rogers: Unfortunately, there have indeedbeen such moments in history. Sometimes countries become more open andinternational, sometimes they become more closed. I think after decades-longopenness, the world now has a tendency to be closed, which is not a good trend.Such state existed during the Great Depression of the 1930s, which led to war,among many other problems. There is also a trend towards this now. I hope itwon’t last long. Many US companies are moving back to the US, but the cost ofstarting a business in the US is quite expensive and the quality of the productmay not be as good. That may be the case with the current state of affairs, andit‘s bad, both for my children and for the world.
《红周刊》:部分职业投资人开始担忧疫情后中美贸易摩擦再度升级所带来的潜在风险,您是否有类似的担忧?
Weekly on Stocks: Someprofessional investors are beginning to worry about the potential risks ofrenewed escalation of trade frictions between the US and China following theepidemic, do you have similar concerns?
罗杰斯:美国现在的所作所为非常糟糕,极度不理智。特朗普或许认为贸易战是对美国有好处的,但贸易战从来就没有为任何人、任何国家带来过好处。特朗普或许不知道这一点,如果他知道,那就是过于自大了。
我痛恨贸易战。我是美国人,所以很不想看到现在的局面。发动贸易战完全是不理智的行为。它会伤害到这两个国家。我希望美国政府能更理智一点。到目前为止,中国的表现都更加克制、谨慎。
现在市场状况已经很差了,而贸易战会使它变得更差。我之前说过,如果政客们开始接连犯错,那么经济形势会越来越差,越来越差!他们是有可能继续犯错的。如果特朗普真的发动贸易战,在今年晚些时候或者明年,那么市场走向可能会比我预期的还要糟糕。我说过,这次危机将是我有生以来最糟糕的一次熊市。贸易战对任何人都是绝对没有任何好处的。
Rogers: The measures and actions of theUS are extremely poor and irrational. Probably Mr. Trump would think trade warsare good for the US, but trade wars have never been good for anyone and anycountry. Mr. Trump may not know this, and if he does, he is being arrogant.
I hate trade wars. I‘m an American, soI‘d hate to see the current situation. Waging a trade war is a completelyirrational act. It will hurt both countries. I wish the US government would bemore sensible. So far, China has been more restrained and cautious.
The market conditions are alreadyterrible now, and a trade war would make it even worse. As I mentioned before,if politicians started making mistakes consecutively, the economic situationswould be getting even worse! And it’s highly possible that their mistakes wouldcontinue. If Mr. Trump does start atrade war, later in the year or next year, the market conditions would be evenworse than my expectation. Just like what I said, this crisis would be theworst bear market of my life. Trade wars are absolutely no good for anyone.
《红周刊》:接下来和您探讨一些投资理念的问题。您很节俭,您的好朋友也是著名投资大师约翰·邓普顿的“抠门”也很出名,节俭是成功的投资人必备的品质吗?
Weekly on Stocks: You‘re afrugal person, so as your great friend John Templeton, a famous investmentmaster famous for frugalness. Do you think thrift is a necessary quality forsuccessful investors?
罗杰斯:节俭是帮助成功的一个重要因素。我很早就给我女儿们买了储蓄罐,并且告诉她们拿到零花钱要存在里面。我对她们说,钱是用来储蓄的,而用来投资的钱不应该花掉;如果你已经有了一定的存款,需要在该花的时候再去花。目前为止我的女儿们做的不错,她们总是把钱存起来。当储蓄罐装满了,我们就把这些钱存到
银行户头里。我一直在
教育我的孩子们要懂得储蓄,并且节俭一些。或许二三十年后你可以问问她们,我这样做对不对。我知道许多人花的钱比赚的多,负债为生,而很多人的人生、婚姻都因此毁掉了。如果你问我,我会说钱是用来存的,没有足够的储蓄时不要随意开销。当然这是我的理念,别人有别人的。
Rogers:Thrift is usually benefit success than anything. One of the first things Ibought for my daughters were piggy banks. I told them that money is to be putinto the piggy bank. I want to teach them that money is to be saved andinvested money is not used to be spent. After you save your money, if you wantto spend the money later, you can. So far, when my daughter get money, theyoften put it in their piggy banks. After the piggy bank is full, we go to thebig bank to put the money in the big bank. I try to teach my children to saveand to be thrifty. You can ask them after 20 or 30 years if I did it right. Iknow many people spend more money than they have, and many lives and marriagesget messed up because they have money problems. Money is to be saved, not to bespent until you have enough, if you ask me. That’s my way, you do it your way.
《红周刊》:在您看来,订阅优秀的读物,定期阅读对投资很重要。您的很多交易决定也都是从刊物中得到了“灵感”。可以分享一下,您目前最常阅读的刊物是什么吗?
Weekly on Stocks: In youropinion, subscribing to excellent readings and reading them regularly isimportant for investing. And many of your trading decisions are also"inspired" from such readings. Could you share with us what’re thepublications that you’re reading most currently?
罗杰斯:我只能读英文内容,我会读《金融时报》,以及其他国家的一些报纸。不过现在网上可以看到一切信息,只需要上网就能够了解全球发生的一切,因此我不再读报纸了。我会上网了解关于中国、韩国还有俄罗斯的事情;我可以在网上查找我感兴趣的任何国家和任何行业的相关讯息。
不过我教我的女儿们,一定要多维度地了解事情。如果想看英文资讯,可以看中国的中国国际电视台,英国的BBC,韩国的KBS,还有俄罗斯的RT。在网络上,这些咨询应有尽有,我告诉我的孩子们,如果想详尽的了解事情,这些都要看。她们认为我说的对。如果你只看CNN,并认为它向你传达它的讯息是绝对正确的,但这是不可能的。
所以我们要多从一些渠道了解更全面的信息,去看5个、或者6个媒体的报道,然后再自己思考哪些信息是正确而真实的。这不容易,不过多年来我一直这样做,现在也在教我的小孩这样做。媒体发声时,他们都认为自己是正确的,但没有人一直正确,所以我们要有自己的判断。
Rogers:I can only read in English, so I read Financial Times and English newspapersfrom other countries. Now everything is on the internet, so I can read thingsconveniently from all over the world; I don’t read newspapers anymore. I readabout China, Korea and Russia on the internet; I can read about any country andany industry I interested in.
Itry to teach my children that they should read from many sources. If you onlyspeak English, you can watch CGTN from China, BBC from England, RT from Russia,and KBS from Korea. On the internet, you can watch in English many sources ofinformation. I have taught my daughters that they should watch them all. Everyone of them thinks it’s correct. If you only watch CNN, you get information itdeems accurate, but this can’t be always true.
Thus,we need to get information from more sources. We can watch five or six TVnetworks from different countries, then we figure out what is really happeningby ourselves. It’s not easy. I have been doing this for 40 or 50 years. Now I’mtrying to teach my children to do the same. Media convey the information theydeem right. They all think they are right, but they can’t all be right. Weshould figure out what’s right by thinking independently.
《红周刊》:对于中国的职业投资人,如果想在基本面和价值投资继续深挖,在学和提高方面,您的建议是什么?
Weekly on Stocks: What is your advice to professional investors inChina who want to continue exploration in the general situation and valueinvestment in terms of learning and improvement?
罗杰斯:我会做我刚刚说过的事情,尽可能获取更多的视角。我很喜欢中国国际电视台,不过我也知道他们给出的信息不可能一直完全正确,所以我也会去寻找来自其他国家、其他媒体的信息和视角。即使进行过这种全面了解,我还是会做出错误决定;但全面了解依然是必要的。在中国,相对不是那么容易获取外界信息,但我鼓励所有投资人都应尽可能获得更多、更全面的信息和视野。如果你只看CNN的报道,你获得的理解一定失之准确;如果只看其他任何一个国家的媒体,也都会导致同样的偏颇;但如果你看的足够多,那么你获得的信息就会帮助你做出一个准确的判断。
Rogers:As for me, I’ll try to get as many perspectives as I can. I love CGTN, aChinese English language network, but I know their information can’t beaccurate all the time. Thus, I will watch others to get more comprehensiveinformation and more sweeping view from other nations. Even then, I makemistakes. But it’s crucial to try to get as many perspectives as I can. I knowinformation on the network in China is not as open as in some other nations;nonetheless, I would urge all investors to get as many sources of informationand perspectives as they can. If you only watch CNN in America, you would bebiased; if you only watch RT in Russia, or any other media of a nation, youwould be biased, too. However, if you have enough sources of information, youmay get a better judgement on what’s really going on.
《红周刊》:最后给我们
读者说些您的寄语吧!
Weekly on Stocks: As we’re approaching to the end of the interview,could you please share more with our readers?
罗杰斯:一定要谨慎些。在未来两三年乃至更长的时间里,我们的日子都不会太好过,所以要谨慎地对待投资。不要草率地去投资那些你并不了解的领域。如果眼下没有合适的投资机会,耐心等待,把钱放在银行里,这样更安全。在接下来的几年里,会有很多人失去他们的资产,要警惕。
并且保持学。如果你能保持学,有足够的知识来支撑你的
行动,你就更有可能在这场危机
中坚持下来,甚至有可能赚到钱。在上世纪30年代大危机中,许多人赚到了钱,所以我们也有机会在经济不景气的时候赚钱,只要你知道你在做什么,并且足够谨慎。一定要谨慎。
并且保持学。如果你能保持学,有足够的知识来支撑你的行动,你就更有可能在这场危机中坚持下来,甚至有可能赚到钱。在上世纪30年代大危机中,许多人赚到了钱,所以我们也有机会在经济不景气的时候赚钱,只要你知道你在做什么,并且足够谨慎。一定要谨慎。
还有,每个人都应该看《证券市场红周刊》(笑)。
Rogers:Yes, please be careful of poor investment decisions. We are going to have somedifficult times in the next two or three years, maybe even longer. So please bevery careful about your investments. Do not invest in anything unless you’vegot good knowledge about it. If you can’t find a good opportunity to makeinvestment, just wait; put your money in the bank, because it’s safer. To putyour money in the bank, you won’t lose money, while in the investment market,many people will lose a lot of money in the next few years.
You have to keep learning and becomeknowledgeable, because you’ll probably keep your assets in the crisis, or evenmake more money only if you know what you are doing. In the 1930s, many peoplemade a lot of money despite the Great Depression. So, we can make money in badtimes if we are knowledgeable and cautious enough. Just be careful.
And, one more thing. Everybodyshould watch Weekly on Stocks.(Laugh)
《红周刊》:再次感谢罗杰斯先生百忙中接受我们《红周刊》的采访,我的问题结束了,希望下次有机会可以当面向您请教。也祝您身体健康!
Weekly on Stocks: Thanks againMr. Rogers for accepting the interview with Weekly on Stocks. So much for myquestions. I hope that I can still have the opportunity to have face-to-faceinterview with you like this. And good health to you!
罗杰斯:谢谢,我期待能到中国和你们见面。
Rogers: Thank you, I would liketo see you in person when I’m in China again.
(本刊记者林中、李健、何艳、李沐遥对此文亦有贡献)
(本文为《红周刊》32期封面文章节选版,专访中罗杰斯还就中国资产能否成为全球资产的“避风港”、是否将投资“
新基建”、其所持有的中
国航空股是否将调仓;美联储“放水”是否将影响美元的上涨趋势、
黄金的未来投资机会,以及如何在“冷门股”中寻找好公司、为何回避
苹果、
亚马逊等热门科技股等精彩话题。阅读专访完整版请点击下方图片订阅本期《红周刊》。)